As I noted in War has been declared Time ran a cover story titled "God vs. Science". Keeping to my word, this is my two cents. Much to my delight it actually contained a short debate between Francis Collins and Richard Dawkins. Richard Dawkins is perhaps one of the foremost speakers in the evolutionist arena. The person representing the intelligent design was Francis Collins. I am not too familiar with any of his writings, but his street credit was being the head of the Human Genome Project, which completed mapping the human genome (DNA) in 2000. As a whole, I found the article an awesome opportunity to represent intelligent design at its finest but was left lacking and at some points greatly disappointed.
I found it interesting that Richard Dawkins primary claim to fame was his most recent book, The God Delusion. In addition to this piece, Daniel Dennet and Sam Harris, contributors in Wired's cover story were also mentioned. The scary part about their writings, they apparently are very popular, being noted as God Delusion has been on NY Time's Best Selling list currently at no. 8. Aside from Darwin's Black Box, I cannot recall when an intelligent design piece had received so much attention.
I took the opportunity to compare and contrast the articles between Time and Wired (especially since they were released the same month). I was able to gather some of the strategy the atheists are using. For instance, in the Wired article the New Atheists clearly express that they believe the faith in any kind of religion to be evil (the idea was initially put forth by Dawkins); however, no such condemnation is even hinted to in his debate with Dr. Collins. The overall tone Dawkins approaches Dr. Collins with throughout the article is rather friendly and respectful, far from what he proclaims should be the logical response to people who believe in God. Two-faced? Perhaps, I think he is simply smart enough not to be honest about his true beliefs because he knows he would gain more enemies than support to make such a claim. I believe Dawkins is using the same tactics as the earliest "scientists" that initially pulled people away from creationism.
For the sake of modern history, let's start in 1795 with James Hutton's Theory of the Earth. He suggested the way things are now has been the way things have always been. Then in 1830 Sir Charles Lyell wrote Principles of Geology in which he invents the geologic column. The geologic column, although never to be found anywhere on Earth suggested the age of the Earth to be more than 6000 years old as believed by most based on scripture. In 1859 Charles Darwin wrote The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection Or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle For Life (yes this is the real title in its entirety), he observes the variation within the Galapagos finches and then concludes all life to be related to one another. Then in the 1860's Earnst Haekel created charts of similar embryology (now known as homology) to suggest that all creatures during development look the same and thus there is no difference in their makeup with ours. Despite being found guilty for fraud and confessing the charts were false in 1875, his theory continues to be promulgated in biology books as fact.
Each person contributed a little more to the now present theory of evolution. It all had to start with doubting what was believed to be true and denying scripture. Although they are hailed as scientists, they did not prove anything. Hutton's ideas encouraged people to doubt the biblical timeline. Lyell's ideas encouraged people to doubt the age of the earth. Darwin's ideas encouraged people to deny creation. Once the foundations of who we are were unknown, man anxiously made himself god. The baby steps in logic brought people from belief to unbelief to denial. This is how Satan operates with any sin. It starts out being rather harmless and unbenunced to us or those around us and it builds. It continues to build until we are right where he wants us.
Back to the article, after the resume and recent success from the evolutionists to summarize who is speaking for "science", to introduce the hard lining intelligent designers TIME says this, "Dawkins and his army have a swarm of articulate theological opponents, of course. But the most ardent of these don't really care very much about science". I certainly feel like my beliefs were given credit as legitimate science... Perhaps it was not meant that way, but the article speaks for itself. At this point in the article the reference to science is in terms of strides in medical treatment, such as brain scans and MRI's. Not a problem, I would be hard pressed to find a bible-believing Christian to proclaim medical treatment as sinful.
Upon introducing the contender for Intelligent Design, he is noted as a "foremost of those arguing common ground" in the midst of the Science vs. God debate. If Time was looking for a good debate that might actually show the sides, they should have picked someone else. Richard Dawkins is in no terms a moderate in his atheism; he is the complete front runner of the growing religion. Francis Collins by description and his explanation in belief is a middle of the road intelligent design proponent. That is, he does not deny they age of the universe currently set around 14 billion years old & he does not deny evolutionary theory. Although far more common in the intelligent design camp, it is a weaker position from the start. To have a real debate of interest would be between a creationist and Richard Dawkins; actually it would only be fair. Take the hardliner from each team and then debate, not the Goliath from the atheists and Jesse's middle son from the intelligent designers. The debate's outcome was decided before it could begin, only how badly intelligent design would be beaten was up for grabs.
TIME: Professor Dawkins, if one truly understands science, is God then a delusion, as your book title suggests?
TIME: Dr. Collins, you believe that science is compatible with Christian faith.
The first question, worded differently to each is essentially "can science prove God's existence if God does exist?" Dawkins claims that it can and that is the primary objective of science. Collins claims God is bigger than the natural world and thus science cannot prove or disprove God's existence. Dawkins wins in this situation, he takes the "a crusader for answers" approach, people want answers and he makes a promise to search for an answer. Collins went wrong by playing into the definition Dawkins presupposed by his answer. Science is limited to natural causes. The definition of empirical science is that which is observable and repeatable. Anything more than what is observable and repeatable is not pure science. It is religion and faith more than Christianity. By not defining what is meant by "science", Collins comes across as not having an answer and plays right into the "religion" side and Dawkins is firmly planted as "science's" spokesman. To go oppose "science is against reason" is logical suicide. Evolutionary theory requires far more faith in unknown variables. It places its faith in undiscovered laws and molecules rather than faith needed to believe the Bible is the real Word of God.
TIME: Stephen Jay Gould, a Harvard paleontologist, famously argued that religion and science can coexist, because they occupy separate, airtight boxes. You both seem to disagree.
The next question being setup by a claim of a late anthropologist and evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould asked if religion and science could successfully coexist because science and religion are in two different areas of thought. Dawkins was right, that position was suggested "simply to win middle-of-the-road religious people to the science camp." Dawkins continued claiming miracles completely defy science. Collins responded that there is no differentiation or separation between science and religion. While Collins might appear to take the higher road he does essentially skirt the issue. Once again if he defined science to the definition of what it is, his response would have been sufficient. My first thought to Dawkins claim that miracles contradict or defy science is "yea... that's what makes them miracles because there is no explanation science can offer". Miracles cannot exist if there is nothing more than natural causes, I dive deeper into this in When you believe in Miracles.
TIME: Professor Dawkins, you think Darwin's theory of evolution does more than simply contradict the Genesis story.
This is the ultimate death of intelligent design getting any points in the debate. Dawkins masterfully plays the "millions of years" card that can adequately explain the variation in the world today. Collins responds, "I don't see that Professor Dawkins' basic account of evolution is incompatible with God's having designed it." Instead of suggesting irreducible complexity (working systems that could not have formed or been functional without all parts present), which is the entire point in Darwin's Black Box; that is essentially a response to Dawkins The Blind Watchmaker. Dawkins did attempt to answer Dr. Behe; Dr Behe replied that such examples were not answers to the problems posed. There has been no further answer from science or atheists to address irreducibly complex systems. Worse, Collins by attempting to appease people who believe in evolution that Christian faith is compatible with evolutionary beliefs. If one wants to take scripture as the Word of God, I address that in Can Christians believe in Evolution? Collins undermines the Bible's authority and waters down the stance of creationists.
TIME: When would this have occurred?
It continues to get worse for the ID community. Collins suggests God activating evolution as a valid theory, this is like watching the goat being set out for the T-Rex in Jurassic Park... and the T-Rex in the debate devours the goat just the same. Dawkins calls out Collins that it doesn't make sense for a God to design a system that would take 14 billion years to get to a stage that we could start sinning and needing redemption. This is precisely why there cannot be a middle ground between evolution and the Genesis creation account. One of the two events happened. Sadly Collins attempts to defend his position that one cannot reason like God, while I do agree with that statement, in the context it was used it offers his theory no redemption.
TIME: Both your books suggest that if the universal constants, the six or more characteristics of our universe, had varied at all, it would have made life impossible. Dr. Collins, can you provide an example?
Although Collins does give a good example, the gravitational constant being so precise that "if it were off by one part in a hundred million million, then the expansion of the universe after the Big Bang would not have occurred in the fashion that was necessary for life to occur." Dawkins finally starts to suggest the naturalistic explanations through constants that narrow vastly improbable odds and multiple universes that Collins was able to pounce on because there is no scientific evidence for such ideas. In addition, Collins suggests Occam's razor, Occam's razor suggests the most simple and straightforward answer makes most sense.
At this point in the debate the two engage in some direct back and forth dialogue. Dawkins claims that the idea of God is just as improbable as chance. Collins responds that God does not need explanations, he is the explanation. Dawkins fires back attacking the answers God provides to be the duty of scientists to discover. Collins responds with the lacking of evidence with current ideas to counter fine tuning and then requests that people allow God as a possibility. They continue going back and forth until Dawkins belittles God by suggesting that God could be anything from God of Martians, inhabitants of Alpha Centuri or Yahweh.
TIME: The Book of Genesis has led many conservative Protestants to oppose evolution and some to insist that the earth is only 6,000 years old.
Here Collins gets a chance to offer creationists a little credit in the scientific arena. Instead Collins shoots down the Genesis account because "is inconsistent, frankly, with our knowledge of the universe's age or of how living organisms are related to each other". In this sentence Collins conceded that he believes the earth is billions of years and that he believes evolution to be true. To make it worse he cites St. Augustine's contentions that Genesis is difficult to understand if it is taken literally. The only problem with that suggestion is that science has advanced plenty far enough to explain what science in Augustine's day could not. Seeing the agreement and weakness in Collins scientific and religious stance Dawkins gets into friendly banter about the disagreement between old earth intelligent design advocates and young earth creationists. Dawkins goes as far as suggesting that creationists be dismissed altogether.
TIME: Dr. Collins, the Resurrection is an essential argument of Christian faith, but doesn't it, along with the virgin birth and lesser miracles, fatally undermine the scientific method, which depends on the constancy of natural laws?
TIME: Doesn't the very notion of miracles throw off science?
Collins appropriately applies that God is not bound by nature so he could defy natural laws when he chooses. Collins goes further to explain his belief in science and faith can intertwine, especially in the investigation of miracles. Dawkins, knowing the possibility of miracles is the very embodiment of everything he is against, proclaims that to refer anything to a miracle is a cop-out and undermines as well as invalidates any possibility of scientific credibility. To quote him "Once you buy into the position of faith, then suddenly you find yourself losing all of your natural skepticism and your scientific--really scientific--credibility." According to Dawkins anyone who prescribes the possibility of anything beyond nature, they have lost all scientific credibility. Despite any appearance of respectfulness he had or even apparent friendliness he had towards Collins, his most blunt statement confirms that he has no scientific respect and Collins has no credibility as a scientist. A fine example of the Atheist’s tactics, discredit possible competition before they are allowed to come to the table to talk.
TIME: Dr. Collins, you have described humanity's moral sense not only as a gift from God but as a signpost that he exists.
Sensing that TIME does not share similar conclusions about moral behavior, Collins refers to sociobiology or evolutionary psychology as current social studies seeking to explain good behavior amidst evolutionary origins. Collins successfully points out that since behavior applies to individuals, to be moral, selfless or altruistic, it is often not beneficial to behave in such a way thus, the concept of good must have come from something more which ought to be attributed to God. Dawkins attempts to explain the value people have for good behavior to be remnants of prehistoric life. Since the early civilizations lived in close proximity to extended families and it is natural to want to preserve genetics, "do-gooding" is based in the drive to help ourselves by helping those that share our genes around us. Dawkins uses this as an acceptable reason to explain human behavior by evolutionary benefit. What he didn't mention is that he also believes behavior such as rape, murder, theft, and other forms of immorality must have had some social benefit because the behavior continues to exist today. This is a prime example of being stuck between a rock and a hard place for Dawkins. On one hand, there is pain in world, aspects people will classify as evil. If evolution is the only cause available, because a person is nothing more than interacting chemicals reacting with one another, then for even the most disgusting behavior there must be an evolutionary benefit in order for it to still exist. Furthermore, according to Dawkins there is no such thing as good or evil, he admits there are good things that happen and evil things that happen but he does not attempt to define what is good or evil. Instead, he denies any existence of absolute good or evil.
TIME: Dr. Collins, I know you favor the opening of new stem-cell lines for experimentation. But doesn't the fact that faith has caused some people to rule this out risk creating a perception that religion is preventing science from saving lives?
TIME: But to the extent that a person argues on the basis of faith or Scripture rather than reason, how can scientists respond?
The final topic of the debate, stem cell research (STR) one of the hotter topic issues that is receiving most of the objections from the religious community. Collins explains that he understands why people are against STR and will value people's opinions. Dawkins compares a killing a human embryo to killing a cow. He also refers to why religious people object to STR, "the issue is, Are they human? If you are an absolutist moralist, you say, "These cells are human, and therefore they deserve some kind of special moral treatment." What both people failed to do was explain what kind of stem cell research. There is embryonic stem cell research (ESCR) and cord blood stem cell research (CBCR). For ESCR an embryo must created (fertilize the human egg with human sperm), then killed to harvest stem cells. For CBSCR blood from the umbilical cord is saved and stem cells are harvested from there. I object to ESCR for the same reasons I object to abortion, that is exactly what it is. I have no objections to CBSCR. The funny thing is, the most recent studies, CBSCR has had far better success than ESCR. The "scientific" community wants to pursue science in a manner that requires the killing of embryos, sounds more like the abortionist community to me...
Wow, this turned out to be really long. I decided against summarizing the conclusions, each person said their peace. Congratulations if you actually read this. As always your $.02 is always appreciated
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